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A Very Special Semicentennial

Of all the days for campus carry to take effect in Texas….

By Comments

Texas’s new campus-carry law, passed by the Legislature last spring, is set to take effect in the summer of 2016. The law grants the state’s public colleges and universities some latitude in their individual policies concerning guns on campuses. The schools are expected to develop their plans this year, based on input from students, faculty, and other stakeholders before the law goes into effect just before the 2016 academic year begins.

I knew all that, but not until I stumbled across this article in The Alcalde, the Texas Exes magazine, did I confront a grotesque coincidence of the timing: the campus carry law is scheduled to take effect on August 1, 2016.

That just happens to be the 50th anniversary of the day that a deranged sniper went to the top of the University of Texas at Austin’s tower and proceeded to kill 16 people during the course of a 96-minute-long shooting spree that is now remembered as one of America’s first mass shootings.

To be fair, a number of witnesses who testified in favor of allowing campus carry, both this year and during previous legislative sessions, cited the tower shooting as a prime example of a situation in which law-abiding citizens carrying concealed weapons may improve public safety. All the same, that’s not why campus carry is officially coming to Texas on August 1, 2016. This is just a comically lurid coincidence that led me to ask myself whether the Lege should lose its lawmaking privileges, and probably raises more substantive questions for many of you.

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  • Timing is excellent

  • Magic40

    This isn’t making our society safer. Permit us to carry our weapons. Disputes will be handled by citizens, not by the proper authorities.

    • PrattonTexas

      Really? How do “authorities” magically appear when seconds count and at the very best they are minutes away?

    • Indiana Pearl

      I don’t want some gun-toting half-wit anywhere near me.

      • Peter Ian Staker

        May I suggest that you emigrate then?

        • Indiana Pearl

          Lame argument . . . “There are lots of rattlesnakes in Texas, so let’s move.”

          • Peter Ian Staker

            On the contrary, it was your goodself who expressed the desire to not reside near a “gun toting halfwit”. I merely pointed out a solution.

          • Indiana Pearl

            Let’s get rid of rattlesnakes.

          • Peter Ian Staker

            If that were possible I would agree. But, Alas! the gun toting mentality is irreversibly ingrained in the very fabric of America.

  • I often read stuff and wonder why it isn’t reported.

    An armed officer thwarted a shooter at a high school!

    yep it seems thats how it works….

    “Cowan entered the school with a .380-caliber semiautomatic and a .25-caliber handgun in his back pocket, Anderson said. The sheriff said that after Cowan grabbed the principal, Melanie Riden, and pointed the semiautomatic at her head, student resource officer Carolyn Gudger pulled her gun on Cowan and moved the principal to safety.

    Anderson said Gudger moved Cowan down the hall and away from the cafeteria to a science pod. When Sullivan County deputies arrived, they ordered the gunman to drop his weapon, and he allegedly pointed it in their direction. He then pointed it back toward the school resource officer, prompting deputies to fire, Anderson said.”

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/08/30/officials-armed-man-fatally-shot-deputies-east-tenn-high-school-students/

    An armed gunman went into a gun free zone intending to kill, but was met by an armed officer and killed.
    No kids died.
    Liberals will never get it.

    • Valikag

      A story from 5 years ago?!?! Really? Plus, a single incident somehow cancels out the other 140+ school shootings?!?! I am a gun owner, and former Infantry, and it is idiots like you that are ruining everything. More concerned with humping your damn gun than the children that have lost their lives. You think a single armed person will thwart a shooter? I have seen entire squads ambushed by a single shooter and wiped out, so please, STFU.

    • Valikag

      A single incident vs 140+ others? Plus, obviously this person had no intention to shoot anyone, and was looking to commit suicide. Gun owner, and former infantry, everyone walking around armed is a war zone, not a peaceful nation. You want to hump your guns and carry 24-7, surrounded by other carriers, grow some balls and sign up to serve, and get shipped off to be a true patriot, instead of just trying to wave a flag and claim to be.

      • Unwound

        also a key term here- police officer- not some trigger happy vigilante who took a 4 hour class to get a permit.

        • The other two examples are of a teacher and an asst principle who took the 4 hr class.
          Gun free zones do not work any better than the left’s zero tolerance policies.
          Actually hardly any of the left’s policies ever work even the one with good intentions.
          Why? Because their policies often aren’t intended to work, they are intended to further an agenda, ie obamacare is designed to fail and then their solution will be a single payer or drum roll please…..medicare a government ran system.
          Then they can tax the rich and decide who dies.

          • Unwound

            Single payer is working pretty well for me. Wife broke her foot last week. Went in, showed her card, got taken care of. And my taxes aren’t any higher in relation to what they would be when you count on paying for health care in the US. They also paid for her grandmother’s cancer treatment a few years ago, no death panels!

          • guns stay on topic….I know its hard but being on a grownup blog requires thoughtful respectful on topic comments

          • Unwound

            Yeah I’ll get right on that as soon as you do.

          • No you won’t. You don’t get to harass me. I’ll make that decision.

          • Unwound

            What decision? I’m not harassing you, were having a “dialogue”. But you don’t really get to decide what I can and can’t do, now do you?

          • no we aren’t. You’ve been told to go away, don’t comment on my comments, we’ve nothing to converse about etc.
            Only a truly dense person would not take the hint.

          • Unwound

            Make me.

          • Now we’re getting juvenile. Is this where you double dog dare me or something? hahaha

          • Unwound

            This was juvenile the minute you signed on. The main point is, I’ve never tried to dictate what you can do here, and you don’t get to dictate my content, got it?

          • Here’s the deal you crossed the line when you creeped my face book page and posted my personal pictures and private information on line w/o my permission.
            Only a truly dense person would think that is acceptable behavior.
            And don’t start your bs about me doing the same thing to you. I did it after you did it. I also protected myself by having a professional run a back ground check on you to ensure my safety. I’ve also notified the local police dept.
            Get it now?

          • Unwound

            Oh MAN Chuck I can’t wait to have Toronto PD knocking at my door. So you have my name? Address? Post em. Better yet, gimme a call! I’d be happy to talk.

          • I’ve also notified the admins about you posting private info, it is against their policy.
            Once again we have nothing discuss creep.
            I’m not sure if you’re getting the message.

          • Unwound

            im laughing so hard at this right now. any info i have on you is available on public forums via an easy google search.

          • Personally Identifiable Information was Posted without Consent
            In most cases, comments must contain the following personally identifiable information to be removed (or edited):

            – Postal addresses
            – Phone numbers
            – Email addresses
            – Social Security numbers
            – Credit card numbers
            I can believe you think it is funny, however I am serious.

          • Unwound

            i have posted none of this information. just your name and image, both easily available (i wasnt even actually the first to post who you are). but cmon, gimme a call, and we can discuss it. if youve really run a background check on me you’ll have my phone #.

          • You have and I’ve documented it. Are you so stupid that you think your behavior is normal?
            Yes others have done it and I’ve ignored them because I don’t think they are a creep, you not so much.

          • Unwound

            “- Postal addresses
            – Phone numbers
            – Email addresses
            – Social Security numbers
            – Credit card numbers”

            ive posted none of this. if i have, please show me where. i certainly have no desire to blow through your $90 limit on your sears card.

            my behavior is an exact response to your bad behavior to both me and everyone else here. all of this will stop as soon as you act like a normal civil human being and show some respect to the other posters here.

          • No you’ve crossed the line and obviously are clueless.
            I have never posted anyone’s personal information nor think it was appropriate.
            However you and others have posted mine. What part of that did you not understand?
            As stated several times go away creep.

          • dave in texas

            Whiskey tango foxtrot do you know about grownup, thoughtful, or respectful? I’ve never seen you exhibit any of those qualities in this forum.

          • Lilly

            To quote a astute lady named Pearl, “Bravo!”

          • Din Tx did I address you? Then MYOB.
            thanks

          • dave in texas

            When have you ever minded your own business on BurkaBlog? You’re notorious for jumping in the middle of other people’s discussions to post some completely off-topic and usually nonfactual BS. For someone who constantly resorts to childish taunts and I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I retorts, you’re awfully sensitive to any criticism.

          • thats a lie but feel free to spout whatever gibberish you choose. One thing about America is you are free make as big of fool of yourself as often as you wish. That what liberty is about.

          • Unwound

            if you minded your own business you wouldnt have anything to post here in the first place.

          • hahaha…read your post out loud. Then when you say omg how stupid….don’t be surprised.

        • Indiana Pearl

          Or didn’t take a class at all . . .

      • So you say it ok to “report” fear mongering and it is ok to “not report” when an armed officer stops a massacre of kids at a school?

        Actually this isn’t the first time it happened.

        http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/170254/how-assistant-principal-gun-stopped-school-shooter-daniel-greenfield

        and of course liberals love wikipedia

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting

        These three examples of armed teachers/officers stopping massacres at schools don’t fit the left’s agenda so it doesn’t make the news….

    • Rob

      Oh, they get it. They know very well, that a good, armed, law-abiding citizen stops bad guys. That’s why the liberal dems want to put a stop to it. They don’t want you to be able to defend yourself. See Ferdinand Marcos, 1972.

      • Indiana Pearl

        Anecdotes bore me. Booksie bores me.

    • Jed

      “I often read stuff and wonder why it isn’t reported.”

      i keep coming back to this sentence; i love it so much. can you tell why?

  • Bad Blood

    I don’t understand how this is a “lurid consequence” in timing. The left was quick to politicize the Oregon within hours to attempt to accomplish their political gun control goals and restrict the constitutional rights of Americans.

    Surely it isn’t beyond the pale for conservatives to have a law go into effect on the 50th anniversary of a shooting where an armed populace helped then and gives the individual the ability to protect him or herself today.

    So I guess what I’m saying is if this were a coincidence, I’d be disappointed. I hope it’s intentional. If we surrender politicization to to the left we will lose in perpetuity as they tug at the heartstrings of America without actually having to make appeals to logic.

    • Lilly

      “[W]here an armed populace helped then” – seriously? I remember when this happened; were you even alive then? It was police officers who took out Whitman. The one civilian who went with — notice “with,” as in “at the same time” — the officers into the Tower accidentally discharged his weapon when he reached the top. There’s a good example (not!) of an “armed populace.” What you are advocating is vigilantism, and not even particularly effective vigilantism.

      You completely ignore the fact that Whitman was a member of the “armed populace” you celebrate. Imagine how many lives could have been saved that day if he had not been able to buy his guns that morning — THAT SAME MORNING. A 3-day waiting period or a background check may have saved those victims.

      And this: “If we surrender politicization to to [sic] the left we will lose in perpetuity
      as they tug at the heartstrings of America without actually having to
      make appeals to logic.” My, what a verbose and obtuse statement. If that is an example of your radical right “logic,” I’ll take the “tug at the heartstrings” every day. Better to tug at the heartstrings that blow the entire chest cavity open with a 357. And “lose in perpetuity”? How dramatic.

      • Indiana Pearl

        Bravo!

        • Lilly

          You know what amuses me, Pearl? It’s those like Mr. Magoo, who shriek “put an armed officer in each and every classroom!” This comes from the exact same people who 1) haven’t been in a classroom since they left high school (or community college) and 2) refuse to fund education. Who do they think is going to pay for these officers? That would be the school district whose budget has already been slashed to the point that there are now teacher shortages and crumbling building. Silly, silly argument, and an impractical one as well.

          • Indiana Pearl

            My son has enough on his hands as a teacher without having to take up arms.

            The gun folks fail to acknowledge that violent crime has dropped significantly since the nineties. The gun lobby feeds them a steady diet of fear.

          • Bad Blood

            That’s great, but the right to keep and bear arms doesn’t exist solely to prevent violent crime. It’s about the preservation of a free people and society.

          • Indiana Pearl

            What do you fear? I can assure you that you will never outgun the U. S. military.

          • Bad Blood

            I fear nothing. I carry.

          • Indiana Pearl

            Let’s hope you never find out how inadequate you are.

          • Bad Blood

            Agreed. I hope and pray I never have to use my firearm.

          • Lilly

            Again, disingenious. Surely you must practice? Heaven help us if you just “carry” (what a troglodytical

            description) without knowing how to use your weapon. And so demure — you know you really, really can’t wait to blow some “crim’al” off the face of the earth.

          • Indiana Pearl

            I hope and pray an innocent child doesn’t use it either.

          • Dan on the River

            Pearl, you don’t have to outgun the US military to defeat them. The Viet Cong proved that.

          • Indiana Pearl

            At the cost of how many American and Viet Namese lives? Are you willing to live like the VC did for years in tunnels living on one cup of rice?

            Naw. You want your Lone Stars, Shiner Bocks, Tito’s Hand Made Vodka and lots and lots of chicken fried steaks.

          • Dan on the River

            I didn’t say it was easy. They had commitment that we don’t have, at least not at this time.
            So what’s your poison – chardonnay? I’m an Jameson guy and have not had a CFS in many, many moons.

          • Indiana Pearl

            Bordeaux long ago, but headaches did me in. Switched to Albarino, but tummy doesn’t like wine anymore. Bombay Sapphire is my drink now at cocktail hour. Like Jameson in Ireland or St. Patty’s. A few old biddies at TM cite my cocktail hour drink when they’re losing an argument.

          • Lilly

            Explain, with citations: How does an AK47 in the hands of a civilian promote “the preservation of a free people and society”?

          • Bad Blood

            LOL. Nah, I’m good.

          • Lilly

            Ah, so you can’t. Empty “logic.” I thought so.

          • Bad Blood

            Yup. That’s it. Or maybe because I’ve done my best to be respectful and make an argument and you’ve responded by being kind of a petulant jerk. So rather than continue, I’m going to focus on work instead.

            Hope you have a lovely day.

          • Lilly

            If you perceive me as a “petulant jerk” (what an interesting juxtaposition of erudite language with slang) because I asked you to prove your assertions, then you best run along. Your friends on Facebook and Twitter will “like” you.

          • BB thanks for standing up for your rights. I find it sad that when anyone stands up for their rights here whether it be their 1st or 2nd amendment rights they are attacked by the same posters.
            When did it become ok to not have discussions/arguments/dialogue/conversations?
            When did the left get to decide how and what we say?

          • Indiana Pearl

            Privileges, not rights.

          • 1st and 2nd amendments are privileges?
            and SS and Medicare are entitlements?
            hahaha….geez

          • Indiana Pearl

            You do run off with an idea and twist it all around.

          • Indiana Pearl

            Of course, that’s not what I said. “Gun ownership is a privilege, not a right.”

          • Indiana Pearl

            And SS and Medicare are “earned benefits.” I paid for those benefits throughout my work life, just like Ayn Rand. They are not a gift.

            I’ll bet you receive SS and Medicare. Man up and admit you do.

          • Jerry Patterson

            You realize the AK you’re talking about is not an automatic weapon, nor is the 7.62 x 39 round it fires very powerful?

          • Lilly

            Does it kill people? Instead of arguing the details, perhaps you will answer the question I posed: How does an AK47 in the hands of a civilian promote “the preservation of a free people and society”?

          • Jerry Patterson

            I could very ably answer the question but as you earlier noted you ain’t changing your mind, and I ain’t changing mine. I don’t think anybody is listening to anything either of us have to say right now anyway. If we ever meet lets talk about football…

          • Lilly

            I find football almost as barbaric as handguns.

            Perhaps we could talk about the Alamo.

          • Jerry Patterson

            It’s a deal

          • Indiana Pearl

            Head wounds . . .

          • Jed

            so why do all your arguments focus on the former?

            what is the national defense plan where a bunch of armed clowns take down the encroaching us armed forces? do you have it on a napkin somewhere?

          • Lilly

            I taught 9th grade. Some of the boys in the class were much bigger than I. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that if one of them had wanted, they could have easily over-powered me and taken my gun.

            How insane to have a gun in a class of 1st graders. What shall we do; lock it up? And if an armed intruder comes in, what happens then. Does the teacher say, “Sir, please wait for just a moment while I go to my locked cupboard to get my gun.”? Silly, silly, silly.

          • Jed

            the UT faculty is circulating a petition that states they will refuse to teach in classrooms where guns are allowed. it has (only?) 350 signators so far.

            that’s a lot of untaught frosh.

          • Lilly

            I would refuse also. I’d be a little nervous about the freshman English kid I had to give a failing grade to, but I’d be more concerned about the “Bad Bloods” who wanted to “protect me.”

          • Jed

            every semester i taught college i had at least one student return to argue a grade. those arguments usually ended in tears, sometime threats to go to my chair or dean, generally bad behavior on the part of students, and one time i was contacted by parents later and threatened with a lawsuit.

            but i never had to worry about whether any of these people had a gun on them. i am glad i am not in that job anymore.

            and you’re right. the scariest ones in the classroom would be the ones who think they are *helping* by adding the threat of violence to any interaction. i could tell you who they would be after the first day of class.

          • Indiana Pearl

            Yeah, Mr. P. too . . .

            STUDENT GETTING A D: “I’m Dean’s list materiel!”

            MR P: “Not this semester!”

          • Typical liberal mindset…”there are no bad teachers just bad students”

          • Indiana Pearl

            The kid hadn’t gone to class all semester. He deserved a D, but thought he could vullynhis way into a better grade . . . just like you.

          • Bad Blood

            Don’t be concerned about me. I don’t want to protect you. Just myself.

          • dave in texas

            I’d be more concerned about the “Bad Bloods” who wanted to “protect me.”

            Hey, everybody “knows” that the best thing in a mass shooting situation is crossfire. Especially when it comes from a poorly trained and scared s**tless civilian.

          • Madrigalian

            So, don’t teach. There are plenty of people willing to.

          • Actually the pedants don’t teach, their graduate assistants do much of the teaching while they are hauling down $$$$$$$$$$.

          • Jed

            i don’t. read better.

            but no, there aren’t.

          • Lilly

            Again, you are just spouting what you want to be true. In fact, the opposite is true. Texas has a teacher shortage. One of the reasons is the teacher-bashing you are participating in.

            You probably won’t read it, but here’s a relatively brief article:
            http://kut.org/post/texas-schools-face-critical-teacher-shortage

          • Indiana Pearl

            My son is burned out after 16 years. Plans to go back to grad school next year and retrench. There is no encouragement for teachers from the public. He won teacher of the year . . .

          • donuthin2

            Good for them.

          • borgerboy

            pearl…could that drop in violent crime be because of people carrying guns?

          • Indiana Pearl

            Sociologists and criminologists attribute it to two causes:

            1) removing lead from the environment in the ’70s, and
            2) legalizing abortion

            Lead affected the brains of growing children and caused aberrant behavior as adults. Abortion prevented the birth of children whose mothers couldn’t care for them proplerly.

            But you, of course, can believe anything you wish.

          • Madrigalian

            I’m sure you could do with a few less administrators.

          • Lilly

            And how many years have you taught? That’s the standard reply for the mindless right “ummm, get rid of them there administratorers. They don’t do nothing no way no how.” Do you know what a school administrator does? And exactly which ones, specifically now, do you want to get rid of? And if there are 15 classrooms in an elementary school, how many administrators will you have to remove to pay for 15 gun-toting officers? And would those officers not have to have some sort of hierarchy? And who do you plan to do the work that those administrators do now?

            Typical right response — little information, blanket statement, no specifics, and little regard for possible repercussions.

          • Jed

            my son, who is a diabetic, doesn’t even have a full time nurse in his public elementary school. he is often administered insulin by a secretary.

            so when the staff position for “school gunman” gets created (to replace whom?), there won’t even be anyone there to put a bandaid on him.

          • Madrigalian

            I said administrators. I didn’t say nurses.

          • Jed

            read better.

            they already don’t have the nurse. your plan would take away the secretary, too. the one giving my son insulin. and replace her with a dude with testosterone issues whose job is to stand in the hallway all day and scare the kids.

          • Madrigalian

            They don’t have the nurse because they are paying too many administrators. Most of whom became administrators when it was determined they shouldn’t be teachers but couldn’t be fired. So they were promoted, out of the classroom. There are now something on the order of 12.8 administrators for every public school teacher on average across the country.

            As for security, let the teachers exorcise their second amendment rights and you won’t need security guards in the halls.

          • Lilly

            Stunning; simply stunning.

            First, “something on the order of” is not fact. It’s what you remember from some talking point. Unfortunately, but not surprisingly, you have it backwards. But perhaps you already knew that? Why worry about facts when you can just make up things?

            Here’s probably where the statistic you (or whatever burbling fool you read) got it from.

            American Assn, of School Administrators

            “One could appropriately ask: How does the number of administrators in public schools compare with the executive and managerial staffs in business and industry? To do this, we turn to the most authoritative and respected source of such data–the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

            Data supplied to the Educational Research Service by the bureau in 2000 indicate:
            • The ratio of employees to executive, administrator and/or manager is higher in elementary and secondary schools (12.8 to 1) than in any other
            business or industry in the study.”

            Now listen closely: This is a comparison of employees –NOT just teachers, but all employees — to the supervisors. That’s 12.8 employees to 1 supervisor.

            Whoops, got it wrong, Peaches.

            Now, here’s what TEA says, from a Politifact article

            “As of March 2010, the report says, statewide school district personnel totaled 661,285. Teachers made up about half of that, accounting for 333,090 full-time staff. Almost all the employees that fall under teaching staff are pre-kindergarten through 12th grade teachers. About 400 are labeled “not applicable,” which Ratcliffe [TEA spokeswoman] said includes tutors and study hall monitors. The 2010 count puts the number of administrative staff at 25,525, or 3.9 percent of all workers.

            So who are the other 302,670 employees — the bulk of the “non-teachers” in Sullivan’s [This would be Michael Q. Sullivan, who I am sure very aware of] claim? About 5,136 are librarians, 11,082 are counselors, 5,916 are nurses and 3,924 are speech therapists, among others. Some 178,140 are classified as auxiliary staff, a category that includes security personnel, public information officers and grant writers.

            Second: Where did you get this load of nonsense?

            “Most of whom became administrators when it was determined they shouldn’t be teachers but couldn’t be fired.”

            Perhaps you could explain just who these many, many administrators are. Are the principals? Superintendents? Curriculum directors? Who are these derelict public servants? What do you think they do all day?

            Third: OMG. You said:

            “As for security, let the teachers exorcise [sic] their second amendment rights and you won’t need security guards in the halls.”

            Exorcise? Well, we would like to exorcise the guns from schools.

            But ignoring your poor understanding of homophones, are you seriously expecting teachers to be security personnel? Shameful. Teachers, and the school staff as Jed mentioned, already serves as 1) nurse; 2) social worker; 3) psychologist; and 4) maid for the students, besides trying to teach them. They buy school supplies for the students, they feed them; they mentor them, and they wipe tears, vomit, and runny noses. They are required to have a college degree with appropriate education courses, and take continuing education classes (that they must pay for). In Texas they don’t get Social Security. Many school districts don’t pay for medical insurance. And the teachers — the ones we trust with our most valuable resource -do all this for around $40,000 – 50,000 a year. And now you want them to play Barney Fife. You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself.

          • Jed

            do you have any source for the settled upon “correct” numbers of admins per teacher?

            do you have any idea what the teachers themselves think of your plan to make them into police officers?

            no and no.

          • borgerboy

            lily, you’re sounding more and more like a liberal democrat.

          • Jed

            or somebody who understands social science, causal reasoning, hypothesis testing, and statistical analysis. this is really silly. there are countless “labs” (called “countries”) out there that have encountered some variation of all these challenges over the course of their modern histories. we can compare circumstances, approaches, and results, and conclude some generalities from all that information.

            it’s called science.

      • Bad Blood

        There are plenty of contemporaneous articles citing how citizens with rifles shooting back at Whitman helped the police.

        And I’m not advocating vigilantism. Far from it. I’m just stating a fact and I’m advocating for not continuing an unnecessary restriction on an explicitly stated constitutional right.

        The “armed populace” I’m celebrating now has gone through the background checks you promote and has very minimal, if any, criminal history. So yes, I’d much rather that all those people carry on campus and everywhere else.

        • Indiana Pearl

          Your constitutional right was not what the founders had in mind.

          Fearful folks . . .

          • Bad Blood

            Yes it was. That’s exactly why the right to keep and bear arms was explicitly stated in the Constitution. Unlike the rights to marriage — gay or straight — or abortion that have been read into it.

          • Indiana Pearl

            “An armed militia . . .” That’s not you.

          • Bad Blood

            Yes it is.

          • Indiana Pearl

            Are you in the military?

          • Lilly

            Ah, poor Troll. He’s being ignored, and it’s making him unhappy. It’s hurting his witty-bitty feelings.

          • Lilly

            And your law degree is from where? And what year were you admitted into practice for the US Supreme Court?

          • Indiana Pearl

            His law degree is from the NRA . . .

          • Lilly

            Or at least his talking points. His art degree is from “Draw the Pirate.”

          • Bad Blood

            You first.

          • Lilly

            No, no, I learned recently no personal information. But you are the one who made the claim “Unlike the rights to marriage — gay or straight — or abortion that have been read into it.” That is a indictment of Supreme Court decisions — so I want to know your legal scholar qualifications.

          • Bad Blood

            ¯_(ツ)_/¯ Too bad.

        • Lilly

          Cite one that does not solely rely on Martinez’s testimony. While I respect Officer Martinez’ bravery, he is also the one who mistakenly thought he killed Whitman.

          Not advocating vigilantism? Please! That’s disingenuous; indeed that’s exactly what you are advocating. Citizens wanting to be quasi-law enforcement (perhaps to compensate for a feeling of powerlessness or other shortcoming) and waving guns to “protect and defend” IS vigilantism.

          Minimal criminal history! Do you hear what you are saying? That’s the best you can do with your right-wing “logic”? MOG.

          How about this: I am more than willing for the Constitution to be followed as the FF meant. You can carry a single load musket. Then maybe the movie theaters, the classrooms, the prayer groups at churches will be safer.

          • Indiana Pearl

            I don’t like to attend films anymore because some gun-crazed adolescent will want to take out his angst on innocents.

          • Bad Blood

            Where does the word “musket” appear in the Constitution? I’ll wait.

          • Lilly

            Where does a handgun or semi-automatic appear?

            Learn your history.

          • Indiana Pearl

            Or an AK47

          • Bad Blood

            See, you think you’re being clever, but you’re just showing your ignorance. “The right to keep and bear arms…”

            Learn your own history.

          • Lilly

            No, you asked the question “Where does the word “musket” appear in the Constitution?” I asked a counter-question with a parallel construction. But you are begging the question.

          • Jerry Patterson

            Lilly, You should read anti-gun, left leaning, UT Law proff Sanford Levinsons’ lengthy published treatise “The Embarrassing 2nd Amendment” and you’ll understand why I’m not limited to a musket. In fact anyone involved in this thread should read it before further comment. JP

          • Lilly

            I believe that my first amendment rights are not covered by your dictating a reading list. But then for many of the right-wing gun fanatics, the rest of the Constitution is malarkey. Tunnel vision perhaps?

            Certainly you are a well-recognized proponent of public displays of firearms by citizens — I believe you people call it “Constitutional carry” or some such? I vehemently disagree with that position. Your reading recommendations fall on deaf ears.

          • Jerry Patterson

            That’s unfortunate you have a completely closed mind. It was a recommendation, not an order. If you have something supporting your viewpoint that I haven’t already read I would read it.

          • Lilly

            Yes sir, I am totally convinced that handguns are only made to kill people and should be banned. I do not find my conviction unfortunate. I do, sir, find yours irresponsible among other things. As I said, we disagree. It is extremely doubtful, as in a cold day in certain infernal words, that either of us will ever change our minds.

            As for suggested reading, perhaps you might contact your local coroner and ask to read an autopsy report on a child that has been killed by a handgun. That, sir, supports my viewpoint. It may also come with pictures.

          • Jerry Patterson

            This is an effective response. Emotional but effective. Good job. JP

          • Indiana Pearl

            Have you ever taken a course in constitutional law? Or have you been frightened to death by Wayne Lapierre?

          • Bad Blood

            Yes I have, thank you.

          • Lilly

            She asked you an “either/or” question. Your reply in the affirmative means you agree with both options, including being frightened by Mr. Lapierre. Poor boy.

          • Bad Blood

            Thanks. Go fly a kite.

          • Lilly

            No, thank you. I have been around here for a while. You are the newbie.

          • Bad Blood

            Cool story, bro.

          • Lilly

            Oooooh, wow. I’m so impressed with your youngster rap.

          • Bad Blood

            Thanks.

          • Indiana Pearl

            Wayne? He scare me too!

          • Indiana Pearl

            “Youyouyou” . . . ad hominem.

          • Bad Blood

            Nope: “Citizens wanting to be quasi-law enforcement.”

            Citizens not wanting to be reliant upon anyone else for their own safety.

          • Lilly

            Well, you actually mean the paranoiac citizenry who can’t wait to blow someone away with their man-toy. Reliant? Well, maybe these same citizens will build their own roads, hire their own fire department, and collect their own trash. Oh! And build their own hospitals.

          • Bad Blood

            If this is the best you can do, I’m done with you.

          • Lilly

            Ah, no counter-argument, just a dismissive statement. Good luck with your own personal fire department! Maybe you can also afford uniforms — maybe with a big V in the center of the chest.

          • Indiana Pearl

            And the internet!

          • Unwound

            Or cowards who wet their pants at the idea of going to the grocery store without being armed.

          • donuthin2

            Wow, you are out-gunning these guys. They can’t even begin to respond to you in a rational way. Way too go.

          • Indiana Pearl

            Lilly rocks!

        • Indiana Pearl

          As I recall, the shooter was in a tightly confined space suitable only for a trained professional, not a half-witted “good guy with a gun” like Wayne LaPierre.

          • Bad Blood

            A life, child, do you have one?

          • Indiana Pearl

            It’s called multi-tasking.

          • Indiana Pearl

            And I’m a 72-year-old grandmother, sonny. Run with it.

      • donuthin2

        Wow, finally a rational thought. Thanks.

      • borgerboy

        lilly, how big was the tumor that Mr. Whitman had on his brain? Surely this tumor didn’t lead to mental illness that the left wants to overlook for fear of offending someone.

        • Indiana Pearl

          This sentence is incoherent.

          • Lilly

            Truly

        • Lilly

          That is a gratuitous remark; do you now feel like a big ol’ Borger Boy bulldog? I’m not in the medical profession, and I am guessing you aren’t either, but I’ll answer. It appears he had at least one, possibly two tumors, one the size of a pecan (no information as to whether it was shelled or unshelled). The original autopsy said it would not have affected him; the Governor’s Commission revised that to say it might have: “the relationship between the brain tumor and … Whitman’s actions … cannot be established with clarity. However, the … tumor conceivably could have contributed to his inability to control his emotions and actions.” (Texas Governor’s Fact Finding Committee, op. cit., p. 10-11).

          A larger cause may have been drug use, but I’ll let you read the report on that possible cause, if you can.

          But hey, why confuse you with the facts?

          The “left” is not afraid of offending someone. The left doesn’t want those with mental illness to be stigmatized by big ol’ Borger bubba boys who move their lips when they read. I’m sure you know some.

      • Jerry Patterson

        I have to rebut you again. He bought 2 of the 7 guns he carried to the top of the tower that morning. The scoped rifle that did most of the killing had been his for some time. You need to pick something else to support because you’re losing on the 3 day wait thing. JP

        • Lilly

          Several sources said three. I’ll pick my battles without help or advice with you, thank you.

          Why such a hurry. Does someone need to die that immediately?

          • Jerry Patterson

            Maybe 3 is accurate. I really don’t have time to research it since at least one of the long range rifles that killed almost all of the victims had been Whitmans for some time. My point is made.

  • space2k

    Why can’t we open-carry in the visitor’s gallery of the Congress? If these Congressmen and Senators REALLY supported the 2nd Amendment, they’d allow responsible gun-owners to demonstrate our GUN SAFETY and PRIDE while listening to our Representatives debate.

    #EndTheBan #GunsInCongressNow #reductioadabsurdum

    • Indiana Pearl

      They are cowards.

  • John Johnson

    Here’s how it works. One person in the Oregon classroom like this man; one person in the Sandy Hook admin office. What is it about this you don’t understand Lilly, Unwound, et al? Even the knowledge that someone might offer armed resistance is a deterrent, even to a crazy person. If he knows one school has armed people and the other doesn’t, where do you think they’re going to go? Your arguments are lame.
    https://www.facebook.com/JerrysOutdoorSports/videos/449578801761691/

    • Unwound

      Cool. Assign cops to schools.

      • John Johnson

        And to restaurants, and churche, and theaters, and, and,and…..

        • Isn’t it funny how the left is anti cops but thats their answer to stop mass shootings?

          • Indiana Pearl

            I’m not all anti-cops, but then I’m a little old white lady with an Anglo-Saxon surname.

          • nah…you’re just a old bitter hater, you hate men, cops, conservatives and probably your life.

          • John Johnson

            They only support them when they need,or after they’ve saved, them. The rest of the time they are on their butts.

          • Jed

            anytime you start using the word “they,” it’s a sign to the rest of us you’re about to talk out your ass.

          • John Johnson

            OK..just subsitute “you”.

          • donuthin2

            Hey JJ, you need to stay out of this. You are way out gunned.

          • John Johnson

            Ha. That isn’t going to scare me off.

          • Unwound

            im totally cool with cops, as long as they arent abusing their authority, just like everyone else.

        • Unwound

          Or just make it more difficult for people who shouldn’t have guns to put their hands on them

          • John Johnson

            How many millions of guns are in existence? How hard is it to get one of them? Think the thugs in Chicago have a problem getting one? How about an illegal alien gang member? How does he get one? Crazy people, have them, but one, know someone with one, or steal one. Keeping them from buying only gives them three options. Yeah, that will work.

          • Unwound

            Less people would probably die as a result of that than a policy of “hey, let’s just arm everyone and then have a big shootout”

          • John Johnson

            “Would probably”???? All we know is that it has never happened the way you predict, has it?

          • Unwound

            homicide rate rate in toronto is lower than that of any major american city. not too many guns here.

          • John Johnson

            How does their constitution read?

          • Unwound
          • John Johnson

            That doesn’t tell us much. Not apples to apples.

          • Unwound

            nope! but you asked, there it is.

          • John Johnson

            Less gangs, ghettos, incarcerated illegals.

          • Unwound

            if illegal aliens are incarcerated, then how would they be shooting people?

            and if you think there are fewer gangs here, you have zero idea whats going on. there are neighborhoods here that are similar to those in east and south fort worth. they just dont have the same access to firearms.

            of course, when they get them, they have events like this, just down the street from where i live.

            http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2015/04/16/eaton-centre-shooter-christopher-husbands-sentenced-to-30-years-without-parole.html

          • John Johnson

            That’s why many of them are there. It must be the Mounties.

          • Indiana Pearl

            No. It’s the huskies. Stupid.

          • Jed

            statistical analysis …

          • John Johnson

            Carry on.

          • Indiana Pearl

            You reject analysis.

  • Who do you want running the chicken coop us Roosters or the foxes?

    • Indiana Pearl

      The farmer . .

      • Lilly

        Rooster? LOL, more like a capon.

        • another misandrist?

          • Indiana Pearl

            Fat people don’t move very fast. I can understand your fear.

          • Lilly

            Witty bitty Troll feels soooo sad. No one is talking to him about his oh-so-not-clever post.

          • Lilly I thought you said you would rather die than stoop to my level…..hahaha
            They just can’t help themselves, like honey to a fly.

          • Unwound

            im putting you in the cookpot.

      • A dictator, I thought you were into collectivism?

  • Indiana Pearl

    There was an armed student in Oregon. There were about six armed citizens when Gifford was shot. None of them used their weapons because they were smart enough to know that the cops would think THEY were the shooter.

    When the two anarchists shot two cops in Vegas last year, then moved over to WalMart, a “good guy with a fun” got blown away trying to be a hero.

    Leave the heroics to the professionals. Most gun owners are rank amateurs.

    I’m relieved to know that HEB will not permit open carry in their stores.

    • Lilly

      How about this, Pearl. This is what happens in a gun-worshiping society:

      http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/08/us/girl-killed-puppy-in-tennessee/index.html

      • Jed

        just think if the puppy had been armed, none of this would have happened!

        the thing to me about al this is the total failure on the part of gun advocates to understand statistics or logic. there is a great email circulating around the UT faculty right now that completely refutes to all these arguments about safety by simply pointing at the statistics. more guns = more killings, all else equal. there is really nothing else that should need to be said.

        the sad part of this is that seemingly all of our debates right now come down to this same problem (evolution in schools, climate change, gun safety, etc). the loudest side, the one best represented in congress, and the one winning the arguments in terms of actual legislation, is completely and utterly wrong in its understanding of statistics, science, logic, and causality.

        this is not an agree to disagree thing, where all perspectives have some merit, though you wouldn’t know it from the news. one side is totally wrong. and they are winning the debate anyway.

        our entire society is being run by the big kid down the block who punched you in the shoulder at the bus stop for bringing your schoolbooks home with you.

        • Lilly

          LOL, please don’t talk about arming the puppy — Pearl and I may have a traumatic flashback. 😉

          • Indiana Pearl

            The irresponsible folks who cause the death of an innocent should do some time. Now they get off scot free.

    • Jerry Patterson

      Why? Because you won’t see the gun? I carry concealed in HEB. Wanna know which one so you can stay away?

      • Indiana Pearl

        There are those who concealed carry. Open carriers want to intimidate – two different personalities.

        Who do you fear at HEB?

        • Jerry Patterson

          You make a valid point. Some open carriers are nut jobs who don’t have much else to do in life. Others like me just want to take their suitcoat off when they’re pumping gas. I don’t fear anyone at HEB, but I carry all the time because I then always know where my handgun is. It’s like a billfold or cell phone or purse-if you carry it all the time you don’t lose it. JP

          • Lilly

            Certainly, sir; it’s vitally important to the people of Texas that you are comfortable when you pump gas.

            I’m more than a little alarmed that you lose your gun so easily.

          • Jerry Patterson

            Lilly, I’ve been accused of being the king of snark, but I admit one can have a dialogue w/o snark and all parties may actually learn something. Your response that you’re alarmed that I lose my gun so “easily” (in 20 years of carrying I’ve never lost it) tells me you now recognise you’re in an exchange with someone who can best you (see my recently posted replies to your earlier comments above), so you resort to snark. Now I will share with you some things you may not know – pay attention. There might be a quiz. As a active duty Marine, I was stationed in several open carry states over a period of 6 yrs. I saw open carry twice, both times in AZ. Once was a guy in a dirty T shirt and flip flops making a large cash deposit at the bank, and the other was a guy buying a case of beer at the 7-Eleven (aka “Stop and Rob”). For those of you that are afraid to go out after the Open Carry bills effective date, I will guarantee you openly carried handguns will seldom be encountered, and after the novelty wears off, you will likely never see an openly carried handgun, unless of course you’re at the next gas pump when I’m filling up on a hot day. BTW, have you found the proof that Whitman bought all those guns on the day of the shooting as you have been leading the uninformed to believe in order to justify your 3 day waiting period? JP

          • Lilly

            Ah, Commissioner, you were the one that made the “joke” about losing it. Honestly, I haven’t lost my purse in 30+ years, if ever. And in actuality, wasn’t the whole “pumping gas” part a snarky joke? Surely you don’t expect the laws of the state to revolve around someone being uncomfortable pumping gas?

            “I will guarantee you openly carried handguns will seldom be encountered’ — and what is your guarantee sir, or is this just another politician’s promise?

            As for the rest, it is abundantly obvious you didn’t read my post. That’s all right; I didn’t read your anecdotal war stories.

          • Jerry Patterson

            OK. I make a point of reading what the other side writes. I have on occasion learned something I didn’t know, and BTW, it IS a guarantee, just like the one I made in 1995 when I passed the CHL law. I then said there would be no “blood in the streets” and “shootouts at every 4 way stop” as the opposition folks like you were so sure would happen. You know what? Firearms homicides per 100k population in Texas since 1995 are down 42%. That comes from DOJ/UCC federal data. Promise kept. I don’t say stuff I can’t back up. Have a nice weekend Ms Lilly. JP

          • Lilly

            Thank you for a citation at last. Good source, too.

            There are other statistics that say other things; things your side probably doesn’t want to mention. For example, the Texas Department of Public Safety has some interesting statistics on gun related convictions: note, your evidence only mentioned firearm homicide, not the other many types of crime committed with a gun. The DPS shows in 1996, the number of firearm related convictions was 33,516. In 2013 (the latest year of complete data) there were 50,869; a 35% increase. To be complete, there were 153 CHL holder convictions in 1996; in 2015 there were 155. That’s an increase also, albeit a small, perhaps tiny, increase (1.2%).

            Statistics are funny things. You can use them to prove almost anything. For example, the DPS reports that the CHL convictions were .3106% in 2013, down from .4565 in 1996. That looks so significant! But it just reflects the large increase (35%) in overall convictions. Imagine if you didn’t have the raw figures to analyze the data. Or if someone with a “dog in the hunt” wanted it to sound better than it was.

            Interestingly, the US Census Bureau 19.34 million in 1996, and 26.51 million in 2013. That’s right at a 27% increase in population. Yet the conviction rate went up 35%. So it’s not just population growth that spurred the rise in convictions. Of course, it could be that their are better detectives, or better DAs, or other improvement in parameters that resulted in more convictions. But then again, maybe there are more crimes being committed with handguns.

            https://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl/reports/convrates.htm

            You didn’t say what you would use as your guarantee.

          • Jerry Patterson

            You’re correct. Stats can be used to prove anything. The best stats on CHL holders are arrest rates, because the data is easier to get and likely more accurate. Indictments would be better than arrest rates but not as easy to get. Conviction rates are difficult since the entire process including thru appeals has to be followed-sometimes taking years. Raw numbers are not good, only rates per 100k population or rates per x number of CHL licensees. If in 1996 (first year you could get a license) there were approx 200,000 (I’m guessing) CHL licensees and they had 153 convictions, and in 2015 with approx 850,000 licensees, there were 156 convictions, that would seem to be good for my side. I’m not sure I trust that conclusion. A four fold decrease in the rate of convictions doesn’t seem rational to me. If DPS is correct and there was a .3106 conviction rate (for what crimes?) thats less than 1/3 of one percent of CHLs’. Not bad if accurate. My guarantee? If I lose I’ll buy you and Indiana Pearl lunch and I’ll leave my gun in the truck! JP

          • Indiana Pearl

            Homicides do not equal deaths by gunshot. Over 50% of suicides in the U. S. are caused by gunshots.

          • Lilly

            Does a silhouette picture with a book or package ring a bell?

            I’m trying!

          • Indiana Pearl

            No. Give me some hints.

            Enjoy this glorious weather!

          • Indiana Pearl

            Why are the numbers down?

          • Indiana Pearl

            But why?

          • Indiana Pearl

            What do you fear, Mr. Patterson? I grew up in a big city with a black population of at least 40%. Never a crime victim . . .

      • Indiana Pearl

        What do you fear? Little old ladies like me?

        The HEB where I shop has abundant old fat people like Booksie toodling around in electric grocery carts — You’ve succumbed to “Fear Factor.”

  • I suspect many here would have us a safe as Chicago or DC or any democrat run town……

    ” least 10 people were killed or found dead under suspicious circumstances since 3 p.m. Friday afternoon across Chicago.

    Thirty-four people were also wounded in shootings as far north as the Albany Park neighborhood and as far south as Roseland. Some of the wounded were in critical condition. No side of the city was without a shooting this weekend.

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-weekend-violence-20150720-story.html

    and DC

    “Three people are dead and others are injured after six separate shootings in the District that happened between Friday night and Saturday morning, police said.”

    http://www.wusa9.com/story/news/local/dc/2015/07/18/six-overnight-shootings-dc/30337927/

    wow can you imagine?

    • Jed

      DC tried to pass its own gun control law.

      it was struck down by scalia and co.

      so your point seems to be that NOT having gun control ISN’T working, right?

      • “However, the District of Columbia’s gun control laws are among the most restrictive in the country, requiring all firearms to be registered with the D.C Metropolitan Police Department without exception. –
        See more at: http://statelaws.findlaw.com/dc-law/district-of-columbia-gun-control-laws.html#sthash.o3XSoEWw.dpuf

        Not only does DC have some of the most restrictive gun control laws they even take it a step further trying to make it against the law for a certified peace office to have a gun in his home. Wisely SCOTUS Justice Scalia struck that part of the DC gun control law down.

        • Indiana Pearl

          The U.S. has the highest death rate from gunshots than any other industrialized country.

          • Madrigalian

            How many of those deaths were the result of self defense, defense of property, justifiable homicide and the result of police action during the course of legal duty? I know, it’s hard to say when all of those stats are all just lumped together as just another gun death. Looks good on talking point though.

          • Lilly

            Why don’t you give us your numbers?

          • Madrigalian

            Why don’t you pull your head out of your Texas Monthly and do some research yourself. I’m not here to think for you.

          • Indiana Pearl

            Back atcha. YOU made the claim. Now back it up.

          • Madrigalian

            Actually, you made the claim, regarding gun deaths without qualifiers. I’m just pointing out that fact.

          • Indiana Pearl

            Cop out . . .

          • Lilly

            Nor for yourself, either, it seems.

          • Jed

            what difference does it make? all of those sorts of deaths are *also* arguments or gun control.

          • Madrigalian

            But not the highest violent crime rate, by far.

          • Indiana Pearl

            No one in Europe, Australia, Japan, India, or China begins to match the U.S. crime rate.

          • Madrigalian

            Bull.

          • Lilly

            Pithy, although not very illuminating. You should work on using more than one word to counter a point, preferably one of more than one syllable?

          • Indiana Pearl

            Do you read crime statistics?

          • Madrigalian

            Yes.

          • Indiana Pearl

            NRA stats or real stats?

          • Lilly

            Ah, still one word/one syllable. =sigh=

          • donuthin2

            Hey dude, you are way outmatched.

          • Like a Texas Ranger it just one conservative per blog. Conservatives hold their own in discussions because they deal in facts and truth.
            Dems try to win by attacking in packs much like gangs or thugs.

          • Jerry Patterson

            Yes but Mexico and Russia essentially outlaw the ownership of firearms and their carnage is worse

          • Indiana Pearl

            Don’t have information about Russia, but Mexicans get their guns from Texas – a gun “dealer” every half mile along the border.

          • Indiana Pearl

            Data?

  • Jerry Patterson

    Austin PD in 1966 was armed with .38 revolvers and shotguns, neither of which were useful until the 2 officers and one civilian reached the observation deck. Lives were saved by armed citizens with deer rifles shooting at Whitman, prohibiting him from calmly taking aim at victims below-this is a fact. It is also a fact that when the 3 “good guys” ventured out on the observation deck to take Whitman out, they were hindered by incoming rounds from those same citizens and their rifles. Armed citizens can cut both ways at the scene of mass shootings, but it’s clear on 1August 1966 those civilian riflemen reduced the carnage. They didn’t even hit Whitman, but they changed the dynamic – when they started returning fire Whitman was no longer in total absolute control. When opponents of armed civilians say that an armed citizen w/a small handgun couldn’t possibly out duel a well armed nut job with several rifles, lots of ammo, and body armor they don’t get it. You don’t have to take him down, you just need to force him to pay attention to something other than shooting helpless cowering victims at will and fewer people will die. JP

    • Well stated and factual Mr Patterson.

    • Lilly

      Commissioner Patterson, I appreciate your service to the state. You and I disagree on this topic, as well as others, I’m sure.

      I am sure you would agree that you should be held to the same standards of citing evidence as any other poster. Please cite your source for the “hundreds of rounds,” and please cite a source that does not solely depend on the testimony of Officer Martinez.

      As for “fewer people will die,” that’s damning with faint praise. A three-day waiting period would have prevented Whitman from buying his guns that day, and those people would have been alive on August 2. Not fewer; all of them.

      Finally, I have no objection to deer rifles. I, myself, have hunted deer and other “critters.” But please note: it wasn’t handguns that you cited as “distracting” Whitman; it was hunting rifles, which further supports my belief that there is no reason for civilians to have handguns.

      • Indiana Pearl

        If one lives in a household with guns, one is four times more likely to be injured or killed with a gun.

        • Madrigalian

          If that’s the case, let’s put a gun in every gang banger’s home and crime will be resolved in a matter of months.

          • Lilly

            Rhetorical fallacy — reductio ad absurdum.

          • Madrigalian

            It’s your argument. I’m just taking it to it’s logical conclusion. Not like your point was all that meaningful to begin with. I mean, is it really surprising a household without a gun is less likely to have a gun accident? Holy gunsmokes batman… what a revelation!

          • Lilly

            No, your reply was reductio ad absurdum. She had a evidentiary point, and you took it to a ridiculous conclusion; ergo reductio ad absurdum.

          • Madrigalian

            It was a ridiculous point from jump. I just carried it to it’s logical, if equally ridiculous, conclusion.

          • Lilly

            No, it was not a ridiculous point — you just thought it was. She has evidence; you have a keyboard — or your phone. Go take a selfie of yourself and your gun. Then you will feel better.

          • Madrigalian

            Have I insulted you in some way there Lilly? I’m not denying her “evidence”. As a matter of fact I agree with her. If you own a gun, you are inherently more likely to suffer a gun accident. Is this like a revelation to you ladies or what?

          • Indiana Pearl

            They’re not all “accidents.”

          • Madrigalian

            You’re right. Many of them are self defense. Or defense of the family and home.

          • Lilly

            How many — or do you just THINK it’s many?

          • Madrigalian

            “are do you think”? Really?

          • Indiana Pearl

            You are backed into a corner. Surrender, Dorothy!

          • Lilly

            Another two syllables! Good! Still just one of five, but it’s better.

          • Indiana Pearl

            I have to go to the dentist, but as Arnold said, “I’ll be back!”

          • Lilly

            I’m going too; the baby birds aren’t much of a challenge. Later, Miss Pearl!

          • Indiana Pearl

            Or a drunk guy shooting his girlfriend during an argument? Or a stupid guy shooting a trick-or-treater? Or a stupid guy storing a gun under the bed?

          • Lilly

            Or an 11-year-old who is”defending” his right to have a puppy from an 8 year-old.

          • donuthin2

            Dude you are losing.

          • Lilly

            No, you haven’t insulted me; don’t be so thinned-skinned. I’m pointing out the error in your arguments.

          • Madrigalian

            Good. As long as we agree that it is you two old hens that are clucking around the insults and innuendos as a form of argument. I’m not thin skinned about it at all. Just being clear where the vitriol is coming from. Thank you.

          • Indiana Pearl

            In your head . . .

          • Lilly

            Ah, so now you want to try and insult us? Silly, silly. If you were more interesting, I would explain my theory on the essential value of “old hens,” but you’re not, so I won’t. If you think that in any way insults me, you are tragically wrong; I have lived my years and earned my “stripes.” I’m proud of my age, bubba. Now where’s that selfie?

            And “Just being clear where the vitriol is coming from,” what, you can’t read the names at the top of each post?

          • Madrigalian

            I do agree, there is a very real difference between a naive, young idealist and an ignorant, old fool. The surprising thing is when someone of so many years and earned stripes can’t seem to make the distinction somewhere along the way.

          • Indiana Pearl

            What is “idealistic” about your worldview?

            We now know that you’re a mysogynistic gun nut who can’t make a logical argument without resorting to attacking your interlocutors on the basis of their age and gender.

          • Lilly

            Well put, Pearl! At least he admits to being naive. He’s just mad because some “wimmin” are talking back to him. BubbaLand requires “wimmin” to be silent and fetch another brew.

          • Madrigalian

            Yep. That’s it. Could you get me my slippers while you’re at it.

          • Jerry Patterson

            You go girl!

          • Indiana Pearl

            “Two old hens clucking around . . .” Is that the best you have, son?

            Another mysogynist . . .

          • Lilly

            He’s just a wittle Robin; it’s hard to think when he’s trying to take another selfie.

          • Madrigalian

            The best I have? No. Not hardly. But it is appropriate.

          • Indiana Pearl

            Men who lose on intellectual grounds often fall back on sexism and ageism.

          • Jed

            again, not what she said.

            sure, nore likely to have a gun accident.

            but she said more likely to *die* from a gun.

            how does that not give you pause?

            if someone walked up to you tuoday and said “i can decrease the probability of you dying today by 3/4, simply have you stand over on that side of the room instead of this side of the room,” wouldn’t you change sides of the room? if not, why not?

          • Indiana Pearl

            People who don’t walk across I-35 don’t get hit by cars either. Lousy analogy . . .

          • Lilly

            Pearl, I read something today I thought very, very interesting: liability insurance required for all gun owners — for each gun. We require it on cars, homes, why not something intended and manufactured to kill? Can you imagine the insurance lobby and the NRA going after each other? Delightful!

          • Indiana Pearl

            Who would win?

          • Lilly

            My guess: Insurance.

          • Jerry Patterson

            No, the NRA would sell insurance!

          • dave in texas

            My guess, and I’m certainly not a lawyer, is that a requirement to have insurance for firearms (which I personally think is a great idea, BTW) would force a suit that would go something along the lines of all the suits concerning voter id laws. Much like practically every case with voter id, the courts would likely determine that the state can’t compel somebody to pay to exercise a constitutional right. The comparison would be to the restriction against poll taxes, which most voter id laws actually are.

          • Indiana Pearl

            Capitalism at work!

          • Lilly

            Then they’d lose their non-profit status.

          • Jerry Patterson

            I’m fairly certain thats incorrect. A 501c3 is not prohibited from making a profit. The profits must be used for a specific purpose however to maintain their non profit status

          • Madrigalian

            It’s a back door national registration and it will never happen.

          • Lilly

            Well, no, that’s incorrect. Insurance companies are private companies. Government would only require proof of liability. And I think the insurance lobby would trump you “bubbas” in a heartbeat.

          • Indiana Pearl

            Follow the money. That’s what our corrupt congress critters do. The gun industry or the insurance industry . . . who will bribe them the most?

          • Lilly

            Ah, we’ll call you “Robin.”

          • Jed

            that’s not what she said.

            read better again.

          • Indiana Pearl

            Wow! Just wow!

        • Lilly

          Pearl, in looking for the Whitman citations, I ran across an interesting anecdote. Whitman’s brother was shot and killed during an “argument” outside of a bar in Lake Worth, FL in 1973, seven years after the Tower massacre. Interesting in regards to your household reference.

          • Indiana Pearl

            We had no guns in my home growing up, nor did Mr. P’s family. It’s a cultural thing.

            Sad for the Whitman family.

          • Lilly

            Oh, I grew up with them; rifles and my dad’s pistol that was put in the glove compartment of the car when we traveled through the vast expanses of West Texas. Back then that was the only time anyone was allowed to “carry” (what a dumb term). It’s been 40+ years, but as I recall, and I could be wrong, you had to be traveling outside the county of residence in order to have a handgun with you.

            I’m a pretty good shot, or I was a million years ago. Haven’t touched one in 20 years. Daddy taught us to respect them, and when we were little, we were never, ever to touch them, and we didn’t.

            I eventually came to the realization that a handgun is made for only one purpose; to kill a human being. Ever since that sunk in, I’ve been vocally anti-handgun and anti-automatic weapons. I’m not crazy about rifles or shotguns, but I’ve spent too much time in the wilds of West Texas not to appreciate a good rifle when you run across a rattlesnake or cougar, as I have.

          • Indiana Pearl

            I can understand a couple of rifles to shoot varmints. Was in Chinati Hot Springs five years ago and our hosts warned us about a cougar in the neighborhood. We went for a hike unarmed, but figured the four of us would deter a cat that size.

          • Indiana Pearl

            As I recall Whitman stabbed his wife to death BEFORE he went to the tower. Did he buy the guns AFTER he stabbed his wife?

            GUNSELLER: “I see you’re covered in blood. Let me show you our rifle collection.”

          • Lilly

            Yes, he stabbed his wife in the heart three times (as I recall from reading this morning). He shot his mother and then stabbed her in the heart. All this happened in the wee hours of the morning.

            After the stores opened, he went and bought the guns, etc. Time to clean up. Then he took the shotgun home and sawed off the barrel.

            But as you state, I’m not exactly sure the gun salesman would have cared too much; a sale is a sale is a sale…

      • Jerry Patterson

        Lilly, I’m not sure where I wrote “hundreds of rounds” above so I can’t answer that. My source is not Officer Martinez. A good read is the Texas Monthly article by Pamela Colloff in 2006 with interviews of 10-15 folks who were there that day. Some of those folks believe as I do, some don’t. Fewer dying in my view is more than “faint praise”, particularly if you’re one of those able to escape the venue because an armed citizen has diverted the shooters attention from putting a bullet in your head as you cower under your desk or behind your theater seat. You cite a 3 day waiting period as the answer. It’s my understanding Whitman bought the M-1 carbine the day of or before the shooting and already owned several other weapons he used-thats easy to confirm but it really makes no difference! Whitman had been planning this at least since March 1966 when he told the UT Health center psychiatrist he had the compulsion to go up on top of the tower and shoot people-so maybe the carnage is delayed a few days. So it appears to me you would support open carry of rifles , but not concealed carry of handguns? JP

        • John Johnson

          I hope that sunk in. Very courteous, informative and succinct response. A wasted effort, I’m afraid.

        • Lilly

          I’m sorry; I misread your post; I should have copied and pasted. Doing that would have prevented the error.

          Here is what you actually said:
          “Lives were saved by armed citizens with deer rifles shooting at Whitman, prohibiting him from calmly taking aim at victims below-this is a fact. It is also a fact that when the 3 “good guys” ventured out on the observation deck to take Whitman out, they were hindered by incoming rounds from those same citizens and their rifles. Armed citizens can cut both ways at the scene of mass shootings, but it’s clear on 1 August 1966 those civilian riflemen reduced the carnage. ”

          No citations, of course, but I will offer one for you below, as well as for the purchases; some “good reads” for you.

          1) Whitman bought a 12 gauge shotgun at Sears on the morning (shortly before10:00 am) of Aug. 1. Pett, Saul; Loh, Jules, “Whtiman’s Losing Battle Against Hate, Cruelty,” Ottawa Citizen.(https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=VrwyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=xuwFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2481,3916273&dq=charles+whitman+sears+rifle&hl=en) p. 7 August 15, 1966

          2. “Later in the morning he bought a variety of ammunition and a shotgun” Alwyn Barr, “WHITMAN, CHARLES JOSEPH,” Handbook of Texas Online (http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/fwh42). Uploaded on June 15, 2010. Published by the Texas State Historical Association.

          3. “In the morning, after calmly purchasing guns and ammunition from three stores and preparing an elaborate trunk of supplies, he had ascended the tower to continue his murderous actions that left 16 dead and 32 wounded. Texas Governor’s Fact Finding Committee. Press Conference, Report to the Governor, Medical Aspects, Charles J. Whitman Castastrophe, September 6, 1966.Retrieved from https://schoolshooters.info/sites/default/files/Whitman_official_report.pdf

          You mentioned
          4.. After the officers reach the top of the tower “Mccoy [sic] is motioned down by Martinez when a bunch of rounds rip the stone four feet over his head. All those deer hunters down below think the two cops are snipers.

          Charles Bowden, “The Tower Tragedy,” (http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a1697/esq0299-feb-america-rev/)

          ===========

          You lightly sidestep (with apologies to Charles Durnan) that the officers might have been victims as well. I’m sure they don’t take that as lightly.

          As for “so maybe the carnage is delayed a few days” by a three-day waiting period. You have no way of knowing that; he could have been hit by a car; his mother, who was already afraid of him and appeared to have slammed the door on his hand that morning (citations available upon request) might have somehow gotten him committed; perhaps his psychiatrist might have stepped up. Maybe three days later it might have rained. But this much is for certain; those 13 people would have lived another three days.

          Why on earth does anyone need a gun immediately? What is the harm in waiting a few days.

          And you are incorrect: I am against open carry in any form, with the one exception of hunters going to and from a hunting site. I am against concealed carry at all times. I am for banning all handguns except for law enforcement and military ON DUTY. It is an abomination to me that the fringe element has forced us to be faced with poorly trained, poorly screened, and poorly regulated vigilantes who strut into a fast-food restaurant, church, movie theater, or campus with a gun on their hip. Disgraceful.

          • Jerry Patterson

            Lilly, Thank you for your response with factual (altho incomplete and intentionally misleading) information. Whitman had 3 rifles, a shotgun and 3 handguns. The M-1 Carbine (a short barreled low velocity rifle that fires a round insufficiently powerful for deer hunting or killing anything beyond 100 yds), and shotgun were purchased on the day of the shooting. Neither of those are long range weapons – Whitman killed most of his victims way beyond the range of either. He also had 2 rifles, one with a 4x scope, and both capable of easily hitting targets out to 500 yds. These weapons were owned by Whitman some time before the shootings and a 3 day waiting period would’ve made no difference. It is my belief these rifles, and possibly the M-1 carbine accounted for all the deaths except for those that occurred in the tower where he used a shotgun and possibly the handgun. Whitman not only told a psychiatrist in March of 1966 he wanted to kill people from the tower, he had also mentioned the same interest to at least one other person over a year before he met with the shrink. Again, 3 day waiting period would’ve saved no one – I do know that for certain! As I wrote before, the civilian rifle shooters were a problem to law enforcement when they reached the observation deck, but it is an undeniable fact those shooters prevented deaths that would’ve occurred if Whitman had been able to calmly and deliberately fire at will well aimed shots with his long range rifles. I know this because I spent 24 yrs in the Marines, have qualified expert with many different rifles and handguns and own and shoot many different rifles, shotguns and handguns today. If you read the August 2006 TM article by Pamela Colloff you will find comments made by victims present attesting to the fact that after civilians began returning fire Whitman had little success in hitting his targets. You have a legitimate point about the dangers of armed civilians – I agree with you they can do more harm than good – but on this day they saved lives. As to the waiting period issue, I oppose it because it will make no measurable difference in reducing gun violence, and substantial political capital would be wasted in its passage. That political capital would be better served by the passage of Sen Cornyns bill S2002, having to do with mental health and improving the NICS check. Senator Reid has informed Democratic Senators to oppose S2002 because they have their own bill which has no chance of passage. Politics come before actually doing something that could make us a little safer. JP

          • Lilly

            I’m not sure why you use “altho [sic] incomplete and intentionally misleading.” You quote no sources and refer in passing to the TM article, which, sir, I did read. Yet you expect me to post all of the thousands of pages of research on the Whitman massacre? Your point was that maybe one gun was bought that day (“It’s my understanding Whitman bought the M-1 carbine the day of or
            before the shooting and already owned several other weapons he used”). I showed evidence that there were at least two, probably three purchased that day. As for intentionally misleading; that hardly deserves a comment, since it is gratuitous and dismissive, I will say that of course Whitman had other guns; he shot his mother before he bought any additional guns, as I have mentioned elsewhere on this thread. Your description of the guns, while I am sure is interesting, begs the question. He certainly felt like he had to go out, write hot checks, and buy two or three more, (not to mention saw off the shotgun barrel. You have other problems with your logic, but I’m stopping there.

            You, sir, and I disagree and will continue to disagree. However, I think you and I both know that my side will eventually win. It may take 10, 20, 30 years, but civilization will see handguns and those who promote them as we now see other outrageous and antiquated practices and “norms” of the past. I may even be there to see it.

  • Madrigalian

    Domino’s Delivery Man Saves Coworkers With Fatal Shots To Thief
    http://gunsnfreedom.com/domino

    NC Man Surrounded By 3 Armed Thugs Pulls Revolver In Fatal Shootout
    http://gunsnfreedom.com/nc-man

    Man Defends Property, Fatally Shoots Chainsaw Wielding Thief
    http://gunsnfreedom.com/man-de

    Knife-Wielding Portland Man Attempts to Rob Woman, She Pulls Out a Handgun
    http://gunsnfreedom.com/knife-

    Woman with CCW Shoots Man Who Tries to Rob Her at Knifepoint at Gas Station
    http://gunsnfreedom.com/woman-

    Detroit Woman with CCW Permit Uses .357 to Fight Back 3 Carjackers
    http://gunsnfreedom.com/detroi

    East Knoxville Man Rescues Clerk, Kills Armed Robber With One Shot
    http://gunsnfreedom.com/east-k

    Breaking: Homeowner Surprises Thieves With .38 Pistol
    http://gunsnfreedom.com/breaki

    Pasadena Homeowner Shoots Invader Multiple Times
    http://gunsnfreedom.com/pasade

    Detroit Cancer Survivor Defends Home Against 5 Thugs
    http://gunsnfreedom.com/detroi

    [VIDEO] Man Shot and Killed After Attacking Ex-Girlfriend And Threatening to Kill Her
    http://gunsnfreedom.com/video-

    Robbery Ring Exposed After Thief Was Fatally Shot By Homeowner
    http://gunsnfreedom.com/robber

    70 Year Old Homeowner Shoots Invader
    http://gunsnfreedom.com/70-yea

    3 Attempted Robber Juveniles Shot By Would-Be Victim
    http://gunsnfreedom.com/3-atte

    ========================

    And this was just some that occurred in one month alone. There are many more, on other tracking sites, and more still that go unreported or under reported, every month. Every day. The MSM doesn’t want you to know about any of this. It doesn’t fit their chicken little narrative/agenda. Go back another month, and another and then you will begin to understand the depth of their “lies by omission”. Also, understand that every rapist who is killed in self defense, every assault stopped by a gun, every home invasion ended by an armed home owner is “counted” as just another “gun death” incident without regard for the lives or property saved by the gun owner. They just use the data to pad their narrative.

    The truth: Guns save lives and property. The safety and security of you and your family is your responsibility. If you abdicate that responsibility to the police/state you have no one else but yourself to blame for being a potentially helpless victim.

    • Lilly

      Anecdotal.

      • Indiana Pearl

        No data . . . fearful people don’t like data.

        • Lilly

          They wouldn’t know what to do with it if they had it. But hey, they can pull “a big ole’ trigger and knock that scary ole tin can off of that there bobbed wair fence.”

          • Indiana Pearl

            Looking at some articles about gun show attendees and low IQ . . .

          • Madrigalian

            Ah, so now we result to denigration, obfuscation and bigoted insults. Having watched the two of you post for some time now, I am hardly surprised.

          • Indiana Pearl

            Et tu, Brute?

          • Madrigalian

            More of the same. Waste of bandwidth.

          • Lilly

            Yea! Finally a word with two syllables! Of course it was one of eight and only two syllables, but it’s an improvement!

          • Indiana Pearl

            Cell phone . . .

          • Lilly

            Got your “message,” Pearl. Still working on it!

          • Indiana Pearl

            I’m keeping vigilant.

          • Lilly

            That dictionary is working for you, isn’t it, Peaches?

          • what else do they offer besides name calling they certainly can back up their obfuscations with facts.

          • Lilly

            Off topic, but did you see that there was a study done, and Trump’s followers have the worst grammar? Why am I not surprised! A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

          • Indiana Pearl

            Dan Quayle, my former Senator, said “a mind is a terrible thing to lose.”

      • John Johnson
  • I understand there are risk takers and there are the risk adverse in our society.
    If you are afraid of guns that is ok, some of us aren’t. We view guns as a tool/weapon and are trained to use them.
    I was a weapons specialist in the military I knew every weapon the military had and was trained to use. I’m not afraid to use a gun to protect myself or others.

    • Unwound

      you dont have to be afraid of guns to not carry one, just realize that you dont necessarily have to be scared of your own shadow.

      that or youre just praying you’ll have an opportunity to use it.

      • You may be right the risk adverse may be afraid of their own shadows….as the the state run media markets fear to them every broadcast.

        • Unwound

          hey, youre the one who cant go to the mall without a 9mm. are you hoping you’ll be the next george zimmerman?

    • enp1955

      Sorry, John. I am not afraid of guns nor shadows. And I feel no need to arm myself to conduct my daily life. In 60 years I have never been in any situation where being armed would have helped. Not one.

      If you want to be ready to shoot someone at any point as you conduct your daily life, so be it. But to me that smells of fear. And if that is what it means to live in America now, then we have lost something precious as a nation.

  • Indiana Pearl

    Guns in America cause high rates of homicides in the home (often domestic abusers) and suicide. Over 500 children under the age of eleven have died of a gunshot in this country since January of this year:

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/get-psyched/201208/the-tradeoffs-gun-ownership-0

  • Jerry Patterson

    One more thing to consider. Firearms homicides in the US have declined from 7.07 per 100 thousand in 1993 to 3.5 per 100 thousand in 2013, thats 50%. Problem is “venue shootings” have increased dramatically (I have no reliable data-just anecdotal). We know background checks didn’t stop these venue shooters, and we know the chosen venues (except Aurora) were schools and generally thought to be gun free zones, and we know the shooters were nut jobs who had an interest in being famous. What might stop the carnage? Clearly the answer is to outlaw of the shooters name and photo by the broadcast media. 1st amendment be damned, I have the solution. JP

    • Jed

      also the whole legal access to guns thing.

      but that’s a knit, surely.

      carry on.

  • I’ve mentioned this once before. It is crossing a line to post another’s personal information on line. It is also against policy here. One poster has taken to creeping my face book pages and posting my personal info, including pictures here. I asked him to stop and he didn’t so I reported him to the admin here and local police.
    I would never post anyone’s personal information on line, who does that? Several of you have done that to me. I usually shrug it off but when you start creeping around in my personal life I will not sit idly by.

    • Unwound

      i thought you also did a background check on me?

      funny, you made that picture i posted your profile pic. couldnt have been that private about it could you?

      • Look creep what part of personal information do you not get?
        The information belongs to me if I want to put it on a bill board I can, you can’t.

        • Unwound

          *whines*

          • hahaha

          • Unwound

            oh yeah, and you did post personal info about me. but then, you dont see me crying about it on here.

          • hahaha

          • Unwound

            oh im so happy were back to this. i cant wait until you crack again.

          • hahaha..

          • Unwound

            has this whole thing made you lose a bit more hair? ill bet it has

          • hahaha

          • Unwound

            can i follow you on twitter? do you follow back?

          • You can do anything you think you’re man enough to do.

          • Unwound

            *mans up, clicks request*

          • reported and blocked…..keep coming cowboy

          • Indiana Pearl

            Hahaha

        • Indiana Pearl

          If it’s on a billboard, it’s in the public sphere. You don’t own it.

          You can’t continually badger others and expect to go unchallenged.

          • maybe 2/3rds

          • Indiana Pearl

            Talk to (1) a shrink, and (2) an attorney.

          • learn the difference between challenging, standing up to someone and a creep.
            First sober up.

          • Indiana Pearl

            Take your thorazine and lithium. I diagnose bipolar disorder in a prolonged manic phase. See a shrink.

    • Indiana Pearl

      Whining to the editors??? The police??? I thought that was against your religion. You certainly have complained extensively when I and others have complained to the TM editors about your potty mouth.

      Given some injudicious posts you’ve made, I suspect you’ve been stalking me and others on TM as well.

      You are undisciplined and out of control.

      • You have posted private information about me and I’ve considered the source a drunk old lady. I can handle you with half my brain tied behind my back.

        • Indiana Pearl

          I’ve posted no private info about you. It’s all in the public domain.

          The internet is like the mind of God, Booksie. Once you hit “submit,” it never goes away.

          You are totally busted.

    • Indiana Pearl

      Whose line? Booksie’s?

      You have no line for yourself, yet you expect others to respect some imaginary line you’ve created to protect your sensitivity.

      Hahaha . . .

  • PrattonTexas

    Perfect. Deadly fire was suppressed by a citizen (student I think) going nearby and getting a rifle to return fire.

  • TM and Erica you’re doing a great job keep it up.
    Fascinating to watch the lefties ignore the facts as they push their agenda.
    Fascinating also to watch as the left circles one poster that disagrees with them and bombards them with less than factual drivel. Then when the poster responds with facts they disappear into the dark to lurk until their next pack attack. Just like a killer with a tumor in a gun free zone.
    Isn’t it great TM isn’t a conservative comment free zone? It is still a liberal blog but the discussions have improved.

    • Indiana Pearl

      Trying to be teacher’s pet? She’s just not that into you . . .

      • You and WASSUP are jealous….hahaha

        • Indiana Pearl

          You have Low T.

          • Indiana Pearl

            Hahaha . . .

  • Indiana Pearl
  • Indiana Pearl
    • Lilly

      Two in one day. But hey, it’s better now! Not!

  • Indiana Pearl

    White conservative males with less than a high school education comprise the largest percentage of gun owners:

    http://www.statisticbrain.com/gun-ownership-statistics-demographics/